Robin M’s recent post on a Convergent Friends definition has garnered a number of fascinating commenters. The latest comes from Scott Savage, a well-known Conservative Friend (author of A Plain Life, publisher of the defunct Plain Magazine and lightening rod for a recent culture war skirmish over homosexuality at Ohio State University). Savage’s comment on Robin’s blog follows what we could call the “Cranky Conservative” template: gratuitous swipes at Conservatives in Iowa and North Carolina, wholesale dismissal of other Friends, multiple affirmations of Christ, digs at the issue of homosexuality, a recitation of past failures of cross-branch communication, then a shrug that seems to ask why he should stoop to our level for dialogue.
Snore.
What makes my sleepy response especially strange is that except for the homosexuality issue (yay for FLGBTQC!), I’m pretty close to Scott’s positions. I worry about the liberalization of Conservative Friends, I get cranky about Christian Friends who deny Christ in public, and I think a lot of Friends are missing the boat on some core essentials. When I open my copy of Ohio’s 1968 discipline and read its statement of faith (oops, sorry, “Introduction”), I nod my head. As far as I’m aware I’m in unity with all of Ohio Conservative’s principles of faith and practice and if I signed up for their distance membership I certainly wouldn’t be the most liberal member of the yearly meeting.
I’m actually not sure about Scott’s yearly meeting membership; I’m simply answering his question of why he and the other Conservatives who hold a strong concern for “the hedge” (a separation of Conservative Friends from other branches) might want to think about Convergence. Of all the remaining Conservative bodies, the hedge is arguably strongest in Ohio Yearly Meeting and while parts of this apply to Conservatives elsewhere — Iowa, North Carolina and individuals embedded in non-Conservative yearly meetings — the snares and opportunities are different for them than they are for Ohioans.
Why Ohio Conservative should engage with Convergence:
- If you have all the answers and don’t mind keeping them hidden under the nearest bushel then Convergence means nothing.
- But if you’re interested in following Jesus and being a fisher of men and women by sharing the good news… Well, then it’s useful to learn that there’s a growing movement of Friends from outside Conservative circles (however defined) who are sensing there’s something missing and looking to traditional Quakerism for answers.
Ohio Conservatives have answers and this Convergence movement is providing a fresh opportunity to share them with the apostate Friends and with Christians in other denominations seeking out a more authentic relationship with Christ. Engaging with Convergence doesn’t mean Ohio Friends have to change anything of their faith or practice and it needn’t be about “dialogue”: simply sharing the truth as you understand it is ministry.
Yes, there are snares involved in any true gospel ministry; striking the right balance is always difficult. As the carpenter said, “narrow is the way which leadeth unto life”. We are beset on all sides by roadblocks that threaten to lead us away from Christ’s leadership. Ohio Friends will need to be on guard that ministers don’t succumb to the temptation to water down their theology for any fleeting popularity. This is a real danger and it frequently occurs but while I could tell eight years of great insider stories from the halls of Philadelphia, is that what we’re here to do?
Let me put my cards on the table: I don’t see much of Ohio effectively ministering now. There’s too much of a kind of pride that borders on obnoxiousness, that loves endlessly reciting why Iowa and North Carolina aren’t Conservative and why no other Friends are Friends, blah blah blah. It can get tiresome and legalistic. I could point to plenty of online forums where it crosses the line into detraction. Charity and love are Christian qualities too. Humility and a sense of humor are compatible with traditional Quakerism. How do we find a way to continue safeguarding Ohio’s pearls while sharing them widely with the world. There are Ohio Friends doing this and while I differ with Scott Savage on some social issues I consider tangential (and he probably doesn’t), I very much appreciate his hard work advancing the understanding of Quakerism and agree on more than I disagree.
But how do we find a way to be both Conservative and Evangelical? To marry Truth with Love? To not only understand the truth but to know how, when and where to share it? I think Convergence can help Ohio think about delivery of Truth and it can help bring seekers into the doors. When I rhetorically asked last month what Convergent Friends might be converging toward, the first answer that popped in my head was Ohio Friends with a sense of humor. I’m not sure it’s the most accurate definition but it reveals my own sympathies and I find it tempting to think about what that would look like (hint: kraken might be involved).
A reminder to everyone that I’ll be at Ohio Yearly Meeting Conservative sessions in a few weeks to talk more about the opportunities for Ohio engagement with Convergence. Come round if you’re in the area.
Also check out Robin’s own response to Scott, up there on her own blog. It’s a moving personal testimony to the power and joy of cross-Quaker fellowship and the spiritual growth that can result.
Hi, Martin… and Robin, in case you make your way over here.
Two quick things:
1. I too find resonance in some of what Scott lifts up – many Friends (Christian or not) just want to “get on with it” and be faithful servants to the Inward Teacher and the Light. And: in the end, “No convergence necessary.” …Of course, many of us bloggers and blog-readers will recognize that no one ever said convergence was “necessary.” Some of us have said that the word simply describes a phenomenon, a movement of the Spirit, that has already been happening…
2. I believe, Martin, you’ve hit on a lovely key element of Convergent Friends: Friends “who are sensing there’s something missing and [are] looking to traditional Quakerism for answers.”
As Robin is finding, there’s always more to it than first meets the eye, but the beauty of this simple statement is that it applies to Quakers regardless of the branch from which they hail.
Well, back to my own busyness and responsibilities of the day.
Blessings,
Liz Opp, The Good Raised Up
Hi, Martin!
I appreciate your post to Scott.
As a member of Ohio Yearly Meeting (Conservative), I feel drawn to make a few comments.
Scott Savage is not, to my knowledge (I’ve checked the YM Minutes) a member of OYM. He is certainly well known among us, and regularly attends various events that include Ohio YM members. He lives in Ohio, I believe, and is conservative, no doubt, in a number of ways.
Based on my conversations with OYM Friends, and my reading of Scott’s blog post, I don’t think he is speaking for the majority of OYM.
One of the things that many Friends are looking forward to at this year’s YM is the exploration of the convergent conversation.
The third paragraph (“Ohio Conservatives have answers” ) of your response to Ohio Conservatives is a quite good summary of just what many of my conversations with other members of OYM have covered.
Opening our eyes and hearts has become an intentional spiritual discipline for a number of us, as we seek to serve Christ.
It is a shame that the ministry being done by and among Ohio YM Friends is not visible, at least in comparison to the apparently error-filled online writings of which you write.
I am especially sensitive to this right now, perhaps, because at a very recent meeting of ministers, elders, and overseers, we heard many stories of outreach, open hearts, patient loving guidance, and joyful interactions between OYM Friends and … all manner of people. It seems that for several of us, at least, loving and serving the Lord is what holds the highest value for our lives, rather than a particular YM affiliation.
Is it that the Friends who are truly ministering are not publishing enough? That may be.
Shalom,
Raye
Good stuff martin, I’m looking forward to doing this with you.
Friend Martin,
I too worry that NCYM-Conservative is in some ways going the way of FGC in an attempt to become all things to all people.
However, anyone who attends our Yearly Meeting sessions knows that we are still decidedly Christian oriented. Part of being faithful to our calling as Christians is that we DO accept gay and lesbian people as equals. To do otherwise is a sin.
The beauty of NCYM-Conservative is that many of us believe that Christ WILL teach His people Himself. If we are faithful to our calling to live in the Light of God and speak Truth to power (that Truth being Christ Jesus), those who are not yet followers of the Lamb will be convinced of the Gospel message.
I suppose where I am on the issue is trying to focus on speading the good news of Jesus and the abundant life that He offers rather than focusing on keeping my Yearly Meeting “Christian”.
To (mis)use a Buddhist saying: “NCYM-Conservative is the finger pointing at the Moon, not the Moon Itself.” I forget that sometimes. My hope is that NCYM-Conservative will remain in the Center of traditional Christian Quaker spirituality. However, if that does not happen, then I pray that I would remain faithful to following what I know to be True.
Just as I believe that God will bring those whom He calls to the cross, I believe that God will open the eyes of those caught in the bondage of bigotry to repentance. May we ALL listen to the Voice of God with open hearts and minds and not shrink from that work which our Savior calls.
Love and peace,
Craig
I could be mis-remembering, but I believe that not only is Scott not a member of Ohio YM, but his issues with Ohio are strong enough that he actually left it.
There are Friends in Ohio YM who have been truly seeking how to be faithful witnesses in the larger world, both of Friends and of the wider society. I think you will find that a number will really want to hear what is happening with those who identify as Convergent Friends, and won’t assume that it is something diluting or harmful.
Martin, I caution you not to go the OYM sessions with negative assumptions and a chip on your shoulder. Go with an open heart, assuming that Christ will be speaking to you through Friends you meet there and that He is willing to speak through you if you are truly open.
*Hi Raye, Hi Bill*: Thanks for the questions about Scott’s membership. I made the silly assumption that someone in Ohio talking as a Conservative Friend would be a member of OYMC but I should know by not this needn’t be the case. I amended the post a bit to be more accurate.
I should also stress that I’m not talking about all Ohio Friends or even any particular Friend so much as an attitude of discouragement that I’ve seen and which has kept the Conservative message of Ohio from reaching as far as it might.
*Raye*, I’ve been quite encouraged by some recent outreach Ohio Friends have been engaged in. I got to one of the two public meetings they held at Marlboro Meeting in Chester County PA (a Christo-centric meeting of Philadelphia YM with some individual Ohio cross-membership). I was also glad to see that this year’s Conservative Gathering was more widely publicized that previous ones.
Your question about publishing is interesting. Obviously I’m a publisher. And I’m someone with a particularly keen interest in outreach. I tend look at Quaker bodies more by how they do and don’t present themselves to the world and less by the warmth of their individual gatherings (I never quite thought of that). There’s a tremendous number of people within a day’s drive of Barnesville who I think would be open to OYM’s message; how do we reach them?
*And Bill*: I wouldn’t be returning for a second year at OYMC sessions if I hadn’t seen all the faithful Friends there. OYM’s got its own special quirks (it is Quaker after all) but I love it.
*Craig*: I love North Carolina too, don’t worry. But there are challenges mixing with liberals especially as the heterogeneity gets widespread enough that “we believe” statements need to be carefully crafted compromises. The Conservative voice in Philadelphia didn’t survived yearly meeting reunification sixty years ago. The history of Conservative Friends is a history of loss and dilution and I feel it’s important not to take concerns
Well, Martin, I am cranky — about some things. Conservative “in a number of ways” as Raye coded to you.
I did enjoy your comment about Ohio Yearly Meeting and a sense of humor! Though not an OYM member, actually, still I proudly and excessively wear the Wilberite dour.
Here’s the Scott-You-Stupid-Oaf quote on my wall today:
“I refuse to take direction on God and happiness, from people who have neither.” –G.K. Chesterson
My wife just replied “ooooh, he’s quoting a Catholic!” (Chesterton). In Quaker shorthand she’s kind of Wilburite Catholic (left Friends after eleven years struggling with the liberals, now part of a traditionalist Roman Rite 1962-Hymnal-all-the-way-baby kind of church). She actually read your first comment on Robin’s blog, thought to herself “yes I think he’s right” then noted in embarrassment that I had posted something in response: whoops!
Anyway… I have a certain fondness for cranks and most people probably think I’m much of one myself. I’ve said before that I think calling ourselves “Convergent Friends” makes us sound more organized, cohesive and central to the movement than we are. There’s no ID card, much less a formal definition.
As I see it, “Convergence” is shorthand for a generational and cultural shift that’s happening. The pendulum’s swinging back and Friends outside Ohio are more interested in Quaker roots, Christianity and Conservative Friends than they have been for awhile (it would be easy to overstate the case, of course, and many Quaker institutions continue to get more and more liberal). Outside Quakerism, a growing number of under-50 Evangelicals are turning away from the megachurches and televangelists, starting house churches, looking for authenticity of worship and talking about primitive Christianity revived and surely we have something to say to them too. Where it’s all going is anyone’s guess.
It was neat to read Chris M’s comment on his wife’s blog about the ripple effects of your visit to San Francisco a decade ago. And another Friend emailed me privately this afternoon to tell me how North Carolina yearly meeting has become more deeply Christocentric in the few years he’s been with it. In Christ all things are possible! The situation might call for the faintest Mona Lisa smile on that dour exterior.
Are you going to be in Barnesville next week? And what kind of religious body might you belong to now? And what’s up with the computer, we’d all love to hear that story!
In Friendship, Martin
Ya know, I don’t know why I feel such a leading to point this out, but in all this conversation on Robin’s blog and here, I have not seen a word about grace. Grace is THE reason I am a Christian instead of a Buddhist, pagan, etc.
It’s not that the comments back and forth are harsh…far from it. But there is something just not right about how we deal with one another even on a seemingly civil level.
We are all growing in Jesus only by God’s grace. I am not what I shall be…as Luther said, “Life is not being but becoming.”
God grant us patience to allow each other to hear the Voice of God and follow. Grant us the grace to be as gracious to one another as God has been to us.
Love ane peace,
Craig
*Craig:* Uh-oh. First Chesterton, now Luther! “Grace” means different things to different people and can be a pretty loaded word in Christian circles. Despite or perhaps because of my Lutheran Nana Kleintop, I’m not a big fan of Luther’s absolutist understanding (what I understand of it anyway).
I think we can consciously align our lives and lifestyles in ways that will make us more receptive to the voice of the Inward Christ. My email signature used to be a quote from Revelation that I picked up from Barclay (“chapter 16”:http://www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/catechism/chapter16.html of the _Catechism_):
bq. God dwelleth with the Contrite and Humble in Spirit [Isa. 57:15] For he said, he will dwell in them, and walk in them [2 Cor. 6:16] And Christ standeth at the Door, and knocketh; if any man hear his Voice, and open the Door, he will come unto him, and sup with him, and he with him [Rev. 3:20].
I moved by the idea that Christ is always there, always gently knocking and that our role is simply to open the door. Grace is always available and constantly offered. Not quite as dour as Luther, though again I’ve not really studied him.
It’s always good to remember what we get we get from God’s love. Getting back to the thread of this post, this translate into an awareness that we shouldn’t expect any kind of immediate result when undertaking ministry. And that we should follow authentic leadings even when they seem pretty pointless – that we never know when God will breathe new life into individuals or a people. Our role is to be faithful, not effective. But faithfulness requires acting on leadings and on actively sharing the Good News of God’s love and grace as we are led.
Yes Martin, you’ve hit on element of Convergent Friends: Friends “who are sensing there’s something missing and [are] looking to traditional Quakerism for answers.”
I made a decision couple years ago to stay in the Religious Society of Friends.
Big part of that decision was finding peace with being a Quaker of Color in a very
White faith community and now being a Christian particularly in the FGC
unprogrammed tradition.
The days of Thomas Kelly and Rufus Jones-liberal Christianity are over!
FGC/ Independent unprogrammed Quakerism has evolved into a
non creedal religious pluralist faith community.
That’s not good or bad it just is.….….….…..
Like many Friends, I have struggle with how to live in and among
the diversity among Friends.
But I am remained of the story in Mark 9:38 – 41, John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.
I know of many unprogrammed Friends who do not walk with Christ.
But Christ walks with them in, driving out the demons racism, sexism, homophobia , war, prison reform, working for the rights of children.
Many of these friends have given me a cup of water to drink (a listening ear) when I was going through a dry period among Friends.
All this in the name of Love which for me is the incarnation of Christ.
What is traditional Quakerism ?
For me traditional Quakerism is simply the work of Christ in all and through all.
The One who is Truth and Love sits with me at the table, with White Friends working on racism in and outside of the Religious Society of Friends.
The Eternal Life and Power prays with me in waiting worship with the non-theist Friends, Yes, the Sun/Son of Righteousness and Prince of Peace marchs with me for peace and justice with AFSC Friends.
I would gain nothing by trotting off to another denomination where I could doubtless find a place, but it would not be my place with my people. I choose to stand within both the community of Christian revelation and the community of Quaker seekers.
I choose to stand where I know Christ continues to stand.
Paul-
Thanks so much for this. As a Friend who “doesn’t walk with Christ” ‑I appreciate your ability to see that he walks with me.
In the past I might have found that insulting (as if I’m a christian but don’t know it, have had the wool pulled over my eyes.)
but I *am* a christian in the sense that I am (mostly) trying to follow a path much like the one Jesus pointed to. It’s not about saying, “Lord, Lord” after all, but about how we are in the world, is it not?
Now that I can apparently get through … Hi Bill!
Martin,
I don’t know if I’m “convergent,” (probably not) but I have been involved with the emerging church for several years and with Quakerism for a decade. I also am aware of the house church movement, but my experience of it is that is is very tangentially related to Quakerism.
I really, really hope and pray that Christian revival is coming to liberal Friends, but personally I have not seen that phenomenom. Where do you see it most? Do you see it more as commitment to Christ or as more people being Christ curious, to use Robin’s phrase?
Scott Savage,
I have enjoyed your books.
Hi Diane, I started a quick comment to this. Paragraphs later it’s “become it’s own post”:https://www.quakerranter.org/christian_revival_among_liberal_friends.php. I didn’t have time tonight to write that but your questions just seemed so pertinent!
Pam, you wrote: but I am a christian in the sense that I am (mostly) trying to follow a path much like the one Jesus pointed to. It’s not about saying, “Lord, Lord” after all, but about how we are in the world, is it not?
The verse about “Lord, Lord” doesn’t really say it isn’t about saying “Lord, Lord”, but that saying “Lord, Lord” isn’t enough. But I am not pointing this out in order to impose some set of things that you must believe or say. I feel I need to just state this with Christian language, please bear with me, it says that you can’t just SAY “Jesus is Lord”, but you have to MAKE Jesus your Lord — which would result in you doing the will of his Father.
Whatever you call that inward guide — “the Light of Christ”, “the inner light”, “that of God”, etc., the most important thing is to follow it. The part about “how we are in the world” flows from that, and the things we do or don’t do can be an indication of how well we are listening, but they aren’t a replacement for the guide. So, it just feels to me like there is some missing phrase in what you said that links the “it’s not about Lord, Lord” to “how we are in the world”.
I’m not even really trying to criticize your statement, as much as to say that I think liberal Quakerism has gradually dropped whatever that missing phrase is, and that the first step is to recover it.
With love,
Mark