Here’s an email from Danny, a new friend who I met at last week’s FGC-sponsored “Youth Ministries Consultation.” I liked his observations and asked if I could share this on the blog. I’m glad he said yes, since it’s a good perspective on where one convinced 19 year old Friend is at.
Update: “Here’s Danny’s new blog, Riding the Whale”:http://Quakernow.blogspot.com/
Martin! I finally got around to checking out your website [after hearing about it at the youth consultation], and it is one of the most beautiful things I have seen in a very long time! Many of the things you have written especially speak to my condition at the Chapel Hill Monthly Meeting, which could be a poster child for “the only thing i believe in is peace [+ that Bush is bad]” brand of Quakerism. While I cannot honestly say I have faith in Jesus as the son of God who died on the cross for our sins at this point in my spiritual developement, I do feel myself moving very strongly towards what you call conservative liberal Quakerism. It’s mostly an issue of making the leap of faith. I feel very strongly that modern Friends need to go back to George Fox and the other old Friends for some context and guidance. Even though I am only 19, I consider myself one of those 20somethings who are looking for a real religion, not just some watered down semi-spiritual community. [I’m not actually a member of my MM. but I feel like I am. I feel like one of the most Quaker non-official-Quakers around]
I apologize in advance for my ranting.
Your writing helped me think critically about the youth consultation, although I already had some problems with it. Especially the lack of God –and just about no Christ [lots of “the Spirit”] and the lack of talk about why exactly young people are leaving Quakerism. I know you’re not someone who necessarily needs to hear my rants, but I just don’t understand why there’s no communication network set up for Quakers from all over the place to come together and discuss things. the fact that there is no North American Young Adult Friends is just pitiful. I don’t, and I’m sure lots of other disgruntled Friends don’t –feel they have any easily accessible way of venting feelings and beliefs in a place where someone will listen.
For some reason, at the consultation I *did* feel like we were worshiping together, which is something I cannot say for CHFM. I don’t know why.
that consultation left me feeling so incredibly hopeful and depressed about the future of Quakerism-at the same time. reading your blogs only fueled those feelings. living on a university, I am very aware that there are a zillion and a half religious groups that all want me to be one of them. What will I tell my fellow students when they ask me why they should be a Quaker? or even what it means to be a Quaker?
thank you for listening to my rants, again.
blessings, blessings, and blessings, Danny
When I asked Danny if I could repost his email, he also asked that he give this disclaimer: sure you can put it up. although i will have to give myself the disclaimer of having only attended the chfm for a year and a few months, so i don’t want to claim that my experience of that community is necessarily the most fair one that anyone could produce. they are really good people,and the kind of community that some people want and need simply isn’t a very religiously orthodox one. but i think that they could clarify what they believe as a community.
I understand why Danny might have desired his disclaimer. OTH, sometimes the best sources of feedback and critique are those who have the newest experiences to a community. Much appreciated for sharing!
I feel that maybe I should correct myself again in order to attempt more fairness for the Chapel Hill Monthly Meeting. The vast majority of members and attenders obviously believe in God [whatever that means], and most probably consider themselves Christian. In Meeting for Worship, the word God is in fact used quite a bit, as opposed to Christ, which is not used very much. It is a little hard to tell how Christian the Meeting is, because there seems to be a kind of unspoken “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy in regards to belief. For a liberal Meeting trying to include many beliefs in harmony with each other, that may in fact be a good thing. I would much rather say positive, constructive things than negative. But I believe my Meeting, and many others like it, would benefit [and the Religious Society of Friends would benefit] from some serious no-bull searching about what it means to be a quaker, who we think we’re retaining attracting and losing –and why — ‚and what kind of communities we think we’re building [and want to build]. My opinion is that those communities ought to be more diverse ethnically and socio-economically, and ought to speak to the firey and radical Christianity which early Friends were known for.
I hope I’m not watering down my testimony too much. I am only trying to tell the truth as I see it to the best of my ability.
Hi Danny: Thanks again for both the email and the permission to share it. I think your honest feedback of your Meeting’s culture is important.
I’ve started digging through the numbers of the informal survey taken at last week’s consultation. One of the high votes among young adult Friends was on the “develop spirituality” question. No over-40 Friend even voted for it. There were a lot of under-40 votes and no over-40 votes on the mentoring questions (do you want mentorship to and from older and younger Friends?). Votes on secular “peace and justice” issues like “conscientious objection training” came mostly from over-40 Friends. No regular Quaker Ranter reader should be surprised by any of this. But it is a good confirmation that it’s not just insider-outsider starting to stare down his 40s who feels this way.
Danny’s not alone in wanting something more spiritually-oriented from his Meeting. If it weren’t too many words (or if my writing style was more influenced by nineteenth century essayists) I might have titled his post “What will I tell my fellow students when they ask me why they should be a quaker?” That’s the question, isn’t it?
Heya Danny,
Just wanted to chime in with a little simple solidarity. I’m 22, and while I am blessed with a monthly meeting that is actively trying to resolve these things, I sometimes share your sense of saddness. Though tempermentally quite a bit of a luddite, I cannot say how important the online fellowship of this circle of blogs has been to my development in Quakerism. (Here I could ad the caveat “for better or for worse, but that’s nonsense. It’s been for the better. This I know experimentally)
The most important thing, I am feeling, for us young friends, is to constantly hold each other up. Read or re-read Thomas Kelly’s “The Blessed Community” (It’s in A Testament of Devotion) and see if it doesn’t lift up your heart in love for your Friends, seen and unseen, and a renewed desire to build the kingdom that is to come. My Young Adult Friends and I are feeling drawn strongly into visiting ministry, which builds both the visitor and the visitee up in fellowship and intentional worship together. This can happen one-on-one or meeting to meeting. You don’t need to be burdened “With the Message of the Truth” — simple love, companionship, and faith will do wonders as an example to those struggling, an encouragement to the discouraged, a spark to the lukewarm, and comfort to the sad. Opening yourself to the One who can do all of these things through you is a powerful and humbling experience, and you will know you are being used and will feel both low and joyful. It will make you “feel like a Quaker” and like a Quaker with a community, whether or not it is the official and acknowledged one.
Actually travelling or starting a reading or worship group are ways to begin this process, but if they seem daunting, consider this idea — offer yourself, just yourself, very simply and joyfully, to the meeting. Write a very short announcement to be read at the rise of meeting — “Danny _________ is avalible to visit with homebound freinds, or any interested friend and attender. See him at coffee hour.” It’s a gutsy move and it may be ignored for a couple of weeks, but see what happens. You can bring some books, ask them what they’d like to hold in prayer, sit with them, listen, read with them, be silent with them. It will build strogn spiritual and personal bonds between you, will likely build inter-generational bonds, and is a way of quietly, gently building the life of your meeting, which must be kept warm and humming if any of these grander-scale changes are to take place.
I’m finding that the more little ways we find to be poured out in service — real service, heart service, the less relevant the fissures and fights and let-downs of the meeting seem. Martin once wrote me
“And you’re totally right that Jesus isn’t a Wilburite or Gurneyite or even a Quaker (or maybe even a Christian?). He’s more than all of our tribal boxes and the walls we put up can keep us separated from coming together as beloved communities…Stay low and humble and close to the Word written in your heart and let us carry the bricks to the new city the Architect is designing.”
and they are words that have remained large in my heart ever since. Being low, quiet, and humble gets a lot of people through a lot of scary places.
Forgive me if I’ve outrun my guide here, but I felt very led to post this to thee. You may find that your particular ministry is entirely different from this arena.
My family lives in North Carolina, and I will be visiting them sometime in May. We should try to get together for some worship.
— Amanda
By the way, we need firey too. We certainly need firey. The concern I seem to have burdened with is in building up a stone framework of spiritual love so that when the fire comes, there’s something left standing to rebuild.
God, that sounds apocalyptic.
Hi Amanda, well those must not have been _my_ words as I totally forgot about them (I missed the attribution to me and was about to hit google to see who wrote them!). All credit to the Creator.
Hey Danny -
I’m glad you found Martin’s website too, and wanted to offer my own bit of solidarity. You said, “In Meeting for Worship, the word God is in fact used quite a bit, as opposed to Christ, which is not used very much. It is a little hard to tell how Christian the Meeting is, because there seems to be a kind of unspoken “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy in regards to belief.… But I believe my Meeting, and many others like it, would benefit [and the Religious Society of Friends would benefit] from some serious no-bull searching about what it means to be a quaker, who we think we’re retaining attracting and losing —and why — ‚and what kind of communities we think we’re building [and want to build].”
Right on! The Meeting I attend has recently been sitting on this issue as well. However, the discussion has been couched in terms of “languages of our faith” – presupposing that some people use different terms to express similar spiritual beliefs and experiences. While the discussion has been helpful, I think it has also allowed us to adhere to the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy you reference. Is it really different ‘languages’ or is it different ‘faith’ altogether? To be a Truth-seeking covenant community, the RSoF must not fear these differences, but instead, dwell in them.
In Friendship, Rob
Write a very short announcement to be read at the rise of meeting — “Danny _________ is avalible to visit with homebound friends, or any interested friend and attender. See him at coffee hour.”
Oh Amanda, that is a wonderful idea. A gift to younger and elder alike. The blessed community in deed.
One of the great things about this post is that it makes it easier to open the discussion about the faith content of our Meeting with younger, newer Friends. (Last night, I sent an email to a bunch of people, asking “Have you seen this? Here’s the link…” I feel so modern.)
My husband and I have realized that one of the things that helped us feel part of the community was that a few older Friends invited us to dinner at their homes, sometimes just socially and sometimes as part of the welcoming committee for new members, even before we were members. And that now, it’s our turn, with our pretty firm insider status, to do the same for newer folks. Dinner at our house involves a lot more spilled milk than is really conducive to deep theological discussion, but we’re trying.
Anyway, it is important for me to keep open the question about what we believe. Compared to other Meetings I hear about and to how our Meeting used to be, I think we’re doing pretty well, but a newcomer shines a new light for me to see by.
Peace,
Robin
Danny, thanks for letting Martin post your comments. Very stimulating, as are the replies.
I wholeheartedly agree that our meetings would be healthier if we all spoke more freely about our own faith and engaged in real dialog about what makes for a distinctive Quaker faith. But I’m struck by the contrast between a couple of your statements:
While I cannot honestly say I have faith in Jesus as the son of God who died on the cross for our sins at this point in my spiritual developement, I do feel myself moving very strongly towards what you call conservative liberal quakerism.… I feel very strongly that modern Friends need to go back to George Fox and the other old Friends for some context and guidance. Even though I am only 19, I consider myself one of those 20somethings who are looking for a real religion, not just some watered down semi-spiritual community.…
Your writing helped me think critically about the youth consultation, although I already had some problems with it. Especially the lack of God —and just about no Christ [lots of “the Spirit”]…
Would you be willing to say something about what you do believe? And why, if you don’t believe in the “Jesus died for our sins” version of Christianity, you want to hear about Christ in messages?
I’m not sure from your comments whether you want Friends to talk about their faith (their real faith) or if you want them to talk about Christian faith. If the individuals in a meeting are not Christians, are you ready to enter into their experience of God, or do you require a community of Christians?
I had a relationship with God long before I seriously considered the person of Jesus or the nature of Christ. I have never felt the requirement that my faith be put through a Christian filter, although I try to take seriously the tradition and reality of liberal Christian spirituality. I have had experiences I believe to have been of Jesus and of Christ, but as I said, I have not felt required to shift my focus from God. Indeed, as my faith has deepened over the years I’ve become more receptive not only to deeper Christian faith but to the wisdom and revelation to be found in some non-Christian faiths.
So when I read phrases like “watered down semi-spiritual community”, I have to wonder if I am being judged and found wanting for my lack of Christian witness.
On a different note:
I just don’t understand why there’s no communication network set up for quakers from all over the place to come together and discuss things.
But there are several. Friends World Committee for Consultation; Quaker United Nations Office; Friends Committee on National Legislation (U.S. only); Quakers Uniting in Publications. Lots of Friends, all across the spectrum, don’t actually want to have anything to do with each other, so these venues are sometimes given short shrift or go unmentioned. The only way to get past that is to become informed and to engage with one another. North Carolina is an ideal place to become familiar with Friends from widely differing faith perspectives.
What will I tell my fellow students when they ask me why they should be a quaker? or even what it means to be a quaker?
Forget about them. Why do YOU want to be a Quaker? That seems like an excellent place to start. What does your Quakerism mean? The writings of Fox and other Friends, early or late, or even the writings of the biblical authors and editors, can only point us toward an inward, eternal truth. Rob’s concern about whether we are using different languages for the same truth or are using different langauges because we have come to different truths is an important one. (As is the inverse, a concern that we not assume the same word means the same thing to all who use it. To wit, shall we do a survey about what the words “Christ” and “Christian” mean?)
Danny lifts up an important question:I believe my Meeting, and many others like it, would benefit [and the Religious Society of Friends would benefit] from some serious no-bull searching about what it means to be a quaker, who we think we’re retaining attracting and losing —and why — ‚and what kind of communities we think we’re building [and want to build].
His comment reminded me of something I had read, in my hunger to understand how one’s Quaker identity is formed and sustained. I dug through my collection of books and came across this section in British Friend’s Alastair Heron’s Our Quaker Identity: Religious society or friendly society?, about a contest, held in the mid 1800s, for essays on the decline of Quakers in Britain.A gentleman who laments that…the Society at one time bore a powerful witness to the world concerning some of the errors to which it is most prone, and some of the truths which are the most necessary to it; and that this witness has been gradually becoming more and more feeble, is anxious to obtain light respecting the causes of this change. He offers a prize of One Hundred Guineas for the best essay that shall be written on the subject…It makes me wonder if many of us Quaker bloggers would have entered this essay contest, had we been alive and in Britain back then! (It was young 25-year-old Quaker John Stephenson Rowntree who won, by the way.)
Besides that, is it time for another round of essays…? smile
As a forty-something Friend, I am moved and stirred by these posts from Amanda, Danny, Martin, Rob, Robin, and others. My hope is restored also through my worship group (average age 28, if you include the 3 wee ones!) and through the words, ministry, and spirit of each of you.
It appears we are united in our hope and yearning for a renewed, vibrant Quakerism, and a hunger to be fed by the Holy Spirit and by one another.
Aren’t we the ones we’ve been looking for!?
Dear Kenneth,
I was trying hard to bite my tongue but decided I won’t. First I want to mention, for myself and not for Danny of course, that the tone of your post felt pretty condescending. It reminded me of times that older adult Friends said similar things to me and, frankly, I often came away wondering if they’d have said anything like what they did and in the same way if they were speaking to someone they considered a peer. It was so obvious, in fact, that I was being talked down to one time at an FGC interest group that one woman (of baby boomer age) interceded with her observations. I hadn’t even noticed the condescension (perhaps because I was so accustomed to it by that point), but she had. Afterwards I saw things more clearly.
I don’t think the suggestions of the national/internationl Quaker organizations you mentioned were anything like what Danny likely had in mind. But I think you probably know that. How in the world do any of these organizations, and yes I am familiar with all of them, even serve well (ie integrate) young adult Friends, much less convinced ones? And QUIP? Who are you kidding? Who has the money to travel all over the country and the world attending those meetings? Only Quaker bureaucrats and employees funded by their organizations or independently wealthy people, I guess. When Martin no longer works for FGC I seriously doubt he’ll get to many QUIP meetings.
On the whole Christianity front, it seems like Danny’s post struck a nerve with you. I think you should cut the guy some slack. Just because he’s coming into Quakerism expecting Quakers to – lo and behold – conform to and speak the language of the Christian tradition they were a part of up until pretty darn recently doesn’t mean he’s somehow a radical. And just because he may or may not know where *he* stands with regard to Christianity doesn’t mean Quakerism at large should have similar doubts.
And have a survey as to the definition of the words Christ and Christian? Give me a break. I won’t even comment on that.
Don’t get me wrong. I love some of the things you say sometimes, Kenneth, but I think we all have to be careful of how we speak to people and be conscious of whether or not age differences play a part in our attitudes. I personally felt it very strongly here.
God bless,
Julie
Hi everyone: At the youth ministries retreat we had this exercise where we were to vote on things that were important to us by placing stars on statements written up on a wall. Two of the options were “mentoring by older Friends” and “mentoring to younger Friends.” The conference organizers strangely omitted the obvious: “mentoring to older Friends.” I penciled it in and young Friends put star after star next to it. All of the mentoring questions were popular with the younger Friends; all were completely absent of stars by older Friends. We are being told something.
To be seasoned and ancient in the ministry has nothing to do with one’s chronological age, membership status, length of attendance in Quakerism, thoroughness of Foxian studies or participation in various over-acronymed Quaker institutions.
Danny is not asking for a Quakerism that is a reflection of his own ego, a religion based on what he already knows. My guess is that he’s seen something in our outward witness and wants to understand its Source. Danny came to us as a seeker but I suspect he’s arriving as an elder. He is asking us questions we Friends need to stop dodging. He’s asking not what _values_ we possess but what _truths_ we believe. How has the Spirit worked in us, Friends?
bq. What will I tell my fellow students when they ask me why they should be a quaker? or even what it means to be a quaker?
We cannot dodge this question by mirroring it back to him. We are being mentored. And we are being asked for mentorship. If we feel “judged and found wanting” in our answers (and I think we all are) then maybe it’s because we need to stand trial. What do we, the people called Quakers, believe? Why does it mean to be Quaker?
Rocking questions, really.
PS: NO MORE EXCELLENT COMMENTS UNTIL I GET THE FGC GATHERING ADVANCE PROGRAM DONE, PLEEEAAAASSSEEE. IT’S AN ALL-NIGHTER TILL IT’S DONE. SLEEPNESS NIGHTS CAN BE GOOD FOR ME, MAYBE I’LL POST A TESTIMONIAL BEFORE DAWN. I PROMISE IT WON’T BE ALL-CAPS.
“He came as a seeker but arrived as an elder.”
This rings true to me at many levels.
Often I must discipline myself to get off my own pedestal – “I have much to teach” – and start sitting on the floor: Someone has arrived in order that I may learn.
Blessings,
Liz
To be seasoned and ancient in the ministry has nothing to do with one’s chronological age, membership status, length of attendance in Quakerism, thoroughness of Foxian studies or participation in various over-acronymed Quaker institutions.
I was born into the Society of Friends (PYM) when Franklin Roosevelt was president. My hair is gray. I’ve sat on the boards of a couple of those over-acronymed organizations. And those words above, I know to be true from my own experience.
I have been and am being mentored by this blogging community. I check my bookmarked Quaker blogs at least once a day. Thank you!
This is wonderful, blessed work unfolding. And it is ripening and will blossom and bear nurturing fruit for all.
Dear Friends
I’m very sorry I have been away for so long. I wanted to be more certain that what I say has something besides whim behind it. While I said that I lean heavily towards Christian Quakerism, I need to check myself by adding that I am not committed to Christian Quakerism. In fact, the things about Quakerism [at least its outward testimony] that draw me to it do not necessarily have anything to do with Jesus of Nazareth. Whether or not I consider myself a Friend or a Christian or anything, I’m very certain that I will keep a few beliefs. I’m going to try to lay out the biggest points.
[1] that the Spirit rises above words –which both means to me that I can reach the presence of God without using words and that scripture is not the fountain itself but only a record of what came out of the fountain a long time ago. a Friend I met at the Piedmont Friends Fellowship retreat last weekend mused that Friends may be the perfect liberal yet spiritual antidote to Pentacostalism. That is something I will chew on for a long time. I appreciate that Friends value science but still look to intuition and pure spirit for guidance.
[2]spontaneous Spirit led worship, in which in which ANYONE could very well deliver a sermon, feels like the right worship for me. I can’t imagine that God would only want to speak through one specially trained and paid pastor in each church. every individual is a prophet ‑however small –as far as i’m concerned. If only they open themselves up to what God has to say.
[3] I have experienced the Light –whether you want to call it of God or of Christ or whatever –and it is pure love and peace and joy. Friends seem to recognize more reliably than anyone else that God is Love and visa versa.
I guess that was all a response to Kenneth’s question “why do you want to be a Quaker?”. Ok but how does Christianity fit into this? I’m really not sure anymore. but I find Christian imagery to be very inspiring and beautiful –even if I do not believe it in my heart. The Ressurection seems to provide the most simple yet powerful testimony out there that hatred and death cannot kill self sacrifice and love. In the past half year I have gained very much spiritually from reading the New Testament, especially the Gospels of Matthew and John and the letters of James and Peter.
when I put down some liberal Friends as semi-spiritual, perhaps my worry was –and is –not that Friends don’t accept Jesus as their savior, but that my own monthly meeting sometimes doesn’t seem to be grounded on ANYTHING. Sometimes it feels like the SPirit simply isn’t present in the congregation –that we’re all sitting in zen meditation together for an hour. I love zen, but it’s not exactly what I’m looking for. Maybe I just want a Quaker revival or some huge earthshattering youth movement or something, because I think the ideas behind historic Quakerism –and unprogrammed Quakerism today as well even if they are not always practiced –make up the most pure beauty that I have experienced at this point in my life. I don’t know. But I will say that the conversations going on at this site are very important for the future of the Society of Friends. Martin I’ll support you monetarily if I can drum up some money. May people up at the top wake up and see that the web does not conflict with the simplicity testimony.
love and light to all,
danny