“Ethnographic Study Looks at Gossip in the Workplace” in the NYTimes:
The earlier studies found that once someone made a negative
comment about a person who wasn’t there, the conversation would get
meaner unless someone immediately defended the target. Otherwise, among
both adults and teenagers, the insults would keep coming because there
was so much social pressure to agree with the others.
Some interesting here. They say gossip usually spirals down until
someone intervenes to defend or deflect. In one school, gossip set up
rival camps; teachers eventually left and student test scores fell.
Friends
(and Christians more generally) are officially against gossip, though
of course we’re not immune and I’ve seen it act as almost a kind of
currency in some settings. But what are the classic Quaker tools for
deflecting this natural human tendency and keeping our communities from
the downward spirals of camp building?
Enjoyed your blog. You reference Harold Behr as a Simple Church Planter. Is he still planting? Can I make contact with him. I am starting a new work called Fresh Connections. I’d like to learn from his struggles. http://freshc.org archie
Archie: glad you like the blog. I haven’t heard from Harold in a few years
(and I never really knew him). Last I heard the church planting project ran
into internal yearly meeting politics and he moved on.
I think this should be a huge topic for Friends, especially the Youth, who are by nature more driven by peer pressure.
Our Yearly Meeting’s Youth Director encouraged the youth to gather to protest a local Friends pastor, whose own Monthly Meeting (as well as several others), support his ministry fully. The result of this encouragement at the hands of the Youth Director was that remarks were made that were incendiary, unQuakerly, and unChristian.
If anyone has any ideas, or tried and true strategies for building up rather than tearing down, we’d be eager to hear them.
Enjoyed your blog. You reference Harold Behr as a Simple Church Planter. Is he still planting? Can I make contact with him. I am starting a new work called Fresh Connections. I’d like to learn from his struggles. http://freshc.org archie
Archie: glad you like the blog. I haven’t heard from Harold in a few years
(and I never really knew him). Last I heard the church planting project ran
into internal yearly meeting politics and he moved on.
Here is what I have tried, and it works to get my own behaviors out of the downward spiral, and often seems to motivate others to do the same.
As I offer this to you, it occurs to me that because it was written a long time ago, and because you may have heard it before, it may seem trite. But following this approach, which has an inward and an outward dimension, works. It can be painful, it can stir up people’s opinions against you because it may step on some toes. (In my life, by the way, I can only do this with divine assistance through prayer, and resolutely setting aside anything that interferes with following this way.) Here goes.
I prefer to use The Message, because the language is more contemporary and understandable to me. Please use what makes sense to you.
Galatians Chapter 5:16 – 23
Matthew 18:21 – 22
1 Corinthians 13
James 3:3 – 18
Another I recall often, to keep myself in line, is Matthew 13:24 – 30. A few verses later, something absolutely vital is explained in understanding the story. “The reapers are the angels.” Not people, not us. The angels do the sorting out. It is not my job.
The passage in James is particularly a propos here. I thank you for pointing me in that direction. Much of what we’re experiencing here is tied up with theology and ideology and what we say vs our actions.
Martin, I posted a brief response elsewhere, but because I think it is important, here are some thoughts on classic Quaker tools.
Queries and advices, at least in my YM, cover this topic. So answering queries individually and as a group, and taking heed of the advices helps prevent this nonsense. Listening, in daily times of retirement, to what the Lord tells us will keep us farther away from selfishness and closer to Him, short-circuiting the human failing of tearing others down to build ourselves up. Wholesome regular fellowship, with the goal of building one another, and thus the community, up, in our most holy faith, can squeeze out gossip and camp building.
Wow, that’s a pretty bad situation. For what it’s worth, Jesus is pretty clear that we will be both mis-understood and intentionally mis-characterized. Sometimes the best we can do is to just hold as close as we can to charity and to do our best to keep ourselves (and our supporters) from getting caught up in the drama. Part of the spiral is reacting to this kind of overt provocation. We need to be brave enough to be meek.
I think this should be a huge topic for Friends, especially the Youth, who are by nature more driven by peer pressure.
Our Yearly Meeting’s Youth Director encouraged the youth to gather to protest a local Friends pastor, whose own Monthly Meeting (as well as several others), support his ministry fully. The result of this encouragement at the hands of the Youth Director was that remarks were made that were incendiary, unQuakerly, and unChristian.
If anyone has any ideas, or tried and true strategies for building up rather than tearing down, we’d be eager to hear them.
Here is what I have tried, and it works to get my own behaviors out of the downward spiral, and often seems to motivate others to do the same.
As I offer this to you, it occurs to me that because it was written a long time ago, and because you may have heard it before, it may seem trite. But following this approach, which has an inward and an outward dimension, works. It can be painful, it can stir up people’s opinions against you because it may step on some toes. (In my life, by the way, I can only do this with divine assistance through prayer, and resolutely setting aside anything that interferes with following this way.) Here goes.
I prefer to use The Message, because the language is more contemporary and understandable to me. Please use what makes sense to you.
Galatians Chapter 5:16 – 23
Matthew 18:21 – 22
1 Corinthians 13
James 3:3 – 18
Another I recall often, to keep myself in line, is Matthew 13:24 – 30. A few verses later, something absolutely vital is explained in understanding the story. “The reapers are the angels.” Not people, not us. The angels do the sorting out. It is not my job.
The passage in James is particularly a propos here. I thank you for pointing me in that direction. Much of what we’re experiencing here is tied up with theology and ideology and what we say vs our actions.
Wow, that’s a pretty bad situation. For what it’s worth, Jesus is pretty clear that we will be both mis-understood and intentionally mis-characterized. Sometimes the best we can do is to just hold as close as we can to charity and to do our best to keep ourselves (and our supporters) from getting caught up in the drama. Part of the spiral is reacting to this kind of overt provocation. We need to be brave enough to be meek.
Dear Indybeckih,
Just to illustrate how tricky this issue is, I find myself wondering whether your comments aout your Meeting’s Youth Director aren’t also gossip. Most of us don’t know who you’re talking about of course, but probably some people do. The youth director’s actions, as described, seem very hurtful and uncalled-for. But of course we don’t know his or her side of the story, don’t know what form the “encouragement” took, don’t know what the objection to the local Friends pastor was, don’t know whether the local pastor had been approached directly first, etc. etc.
I’m sensitive to this issue because a member of my meeting has been broadcasting on the internet his belief that other members of the meeting are backbiting, gossiping, etc. He doesn’t name those members, but I know who he’s talking about and I know there are other sides of the story. I’d imagine they feel very hurt and misunderstood.
Of course, by telling you this I may myself be gossiping. You see how complicated it gets.
— - Rich Accetta-Evans
Martin, I posted a brief response elsewhere, but because I think it is important, here are some thoughts on classic Quaker tools.
Queries and advices, at least in my YM, cover this topic. So answering queries individually and as a group, and taking heed of the advices helps prevent this nonsense. Listening, in daily times of retirement, to what the Lord tells us will keep us farther away from selfishness and closer to Him, short-circuiting the human failing of tearing others down to build ourselves up. Wholesome regular fellowship, with the goal of building one another, and thus the community, up, in our most holy faith, can squeeze out gossip and camp building.
I think the article “Detraction” by Seth Hinshaw is immensely helpful. It’s available in printed form from the Friends Tract Association and is also online at http://www.tractassociation.org/hitec.htm
One problem is that many of us don’t know when we’re gossiping. We may think we’re doing well by outing someone else’s inappropriate behavior. That’s why Jesus’ instructions on how to deal with each other in Matthew 18:15 – 17 are so important. I would add that I don’t think Jesus was saying we have to be constantly calling each other on our supposed sins, but that if we feel we need to do so we should do it face to face and not by spreading our tale among third parties.
Dear Indybeckih,
Just to illustrate how tricky this issue is, I find myself wondering whether your comments aout your Meeting’s Youth Director aren’t also gossip. Most of us don’t know who you’re talking about of course, but probably some people do. The youth director’s actions, as described, seem very hurtful and uncalled-for. But of course we don’t know his or her side of the story, don’t know what form the “encouragement” took, don’t know what the objection to the local Friends pastor was, don’t know whether the local pastor had been approached directly first, etc. etc.
I’m sensitive to this issue because a member of my meeting has been broadcasting on the internet his belief that other members of the meeting are backbiting, gossiping, etc. He doesn’t name those members, but I know who he’s talking about and I know there are other sides of the story. I’d imagine they feel very hurt and misunderstood.
Of course, by telling you this I may myself be gossiping. You see how complicated it gets.
- — Rich Accetta-Evans
Rich — of course, you’re right. We weave a hugely tangled web. And it would be nice if we all sat down and talked with each other until we figured it out. And it would also be wonderful if everyone could hear the Spirit in the same way, whatever the message.
However — I think a point to consider is — for what reason are you speaking about the other person? We are not seeking to have the youth director removed. She is skilled at her job, and is a good organizer. Her actions — using her great organizational skills — were to encourage the youth to come to Yearly Meeting in a large group and protest the pastor with whom the YM has issue.
Since this conflict within the YM has come to a head, there have been several face-to-face meetings (including talks with the youth director herself), following the John Woolman model, with no clarity reached. I think it’s less gossip than just trying to figure out what to do next to see if we can work with unity in the face of diversity, and if unity cannot be reached, what do we do next? All actions have ramifications, good and/or bad.
indybeckiH,
I trust that you and others of like mind will find a clear way forward (or — if there is not clear way forward — will continue to wait). It sounds like you are all trying hard to follow gospel order. I appreciate the fact that you don’t identify the individuals or YM involved on this forum. I supposed that within your YM this is all stuff that’s out in the open already as it should be.
I’m sorry if I seemed at all preachy or self-righteous in my original comment. God knows I have little standing to try to be removing grains of sand from anyone’s eye.
- ‑Rich Accetta-Evans
- — Rich
Not preachy at all, Rich — I appreciate hearing from someone who is out of the vortex of the conflict. All of us here are convinced that we are following the Spirit’s leading, which confuses us since we’re getting such disparate messages. It’s good to process observations from someone who has no prior bias (or to put it less Quakerly — “no dog in the fight”).indybeckih
Thanks!
I think the article “Detraction” by Seth Hinshaw is immensely helpful. It’s available in printed form from the Friends Tract Association and is also online at http://www.tractassociation.org/hitec.htm
One problem is that many of us don’t know when we’re gossiping. We may think we’re doing well by outing someone else’s inappropriate behavior. That’s why Jesus’ instructions on how to deal with each other in Matthew 18:15 – 17 are so important. I would add that I don’t think Jesus was saying we have to be constantly calling each other on our supposed sins, but that if we feel we need to do so we should do it face to face and not by spreading our tale among third parties.
Rich — of course, you’re right. We weave a hugely tangled web. And it would be nice if we all sat down and talked with each other until we figured it out. And it would also be wonderful if everyone could hear the Spirit in the same way, whatever the message.
However — I think a point to consider is — for what reason are you speaking about the other person? We are not seeking to have the youth director removed. She is skilled at her job, and is a good organizer. Her actions — using her great organizational skills — were to encourage the youth to come to Yearly Meeting in a large group and protest the pastor with whom the YM has issue.
Since this conflict within the YM has come to a head, there have been several face-to-face meetings (including talks with the youth director herself), following the John Woolman model, with no clarity reached. I think it’s less gossip than just trying to figure out what to do next to see if we can work with unity in the face of diversity, and if unity cannot be reached, what do we do next? All actions have ramifications, good and/or bad.
indybeckiH,
I trust that you and others of like mind will find a clear way forward (or — if there is not clear way forward — will continue to wait). It sounds like you are all trying hard to follow gospel order. I appreciate the fact that you don’t identify the individuals or YM involved on this forum. I supposed that within your YM this is all stuff that’s out in the open already as it should be.
I’m sorry if I seemed at all preachy or self-righteous in my original comment. God knows I have little standing to try to be removing grains of sand from anyone’s eye.
— ‑Rich Accetta-Evans
— - Rich
Not preachy at all, Rich — I appreciate hearing from someone who is out of the vortex of the conflict. All of us here are convinced that we are following the Spirit’s leading, which confuses us since we’re getting such disparate messages. It’s good to process observations from someone who has no prior bias (or to put it less Quakerly — “no dog in the fight”).indybeckih
Thanks!
Martin, I appreciate you posting about this, and I’ve responded in my own blog, obedienttothelight.blogspot.com. It’s a good subject, and one that affects any close community.
Blessings, Linda
Martin, I appreciate you posting about this, and I’ve responded in my own blog, obedienttothelight.blogspot.com. It’s a good subject, and one that affects any close community.
Blessings, Linda
Not ancient wisdom but here are a few other posts in this topic I’ve been reading up:
This post describes a situation in Meeting where gossip was acknowledged to be part of the problem and Marshall Massey commented to it v informatively with some older quotes as well: http://friend-in-need.blogspot.com/2007/10/call…
Your own tag about detraction collects up some great posts imho
https://www.quakerranter.org/tag/detraction
And there’s an interesting document from the Faith and Practice of Southeastern Yealry Meeting about the “Blessed community” here:
http://www.seym.org/FP.pdf/BlessedCommun%200407…
I’ve been working on just trying to turn my thoughts and the conversation back towards Jesus when I see negativity surfacing. LIke it’s not interesting, but salvation is really interesting!
Not ancient wisdom but here are a few other posts in this topic I’ve been reading up:This post describes a situation in Meeting where gossip was acknowledged to be part of the problem and Marshall Massey commented to it v informatively with some older quotes as well: http://friend-in-need.blogspot.com/2007/10/call…Your own tag about detraction collects up some great posts imhohttps://www.quakerranter.org/tag/detractionAnd there’s an interesting document from the Faith and Practice of Southeastern Yealry Meeting about the “Blessed community” here: http://www.seym.org/FP.pdf/BlessedCommun%200407…
I’ve been working on just trying to turn my thoughts and the conversation back towards Jesus when I see negativity surfacing. LIke it’s not interesting, but salvation is really interesting!